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Kneph
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PostSubject: Jesus   February 22nd 2011, 10:09 pm

just thought i'd post on Jesus. i'd like to find some things out aboot him.

It makes me sad when i hear people talking about Jesus (who aren't Christian) and calling him a fake (especially pagans). I feel that since we have orthopraxy we should acknowledge that he was a real person and that his stories are true. Other religions recognize him as real, why can't some pagans?
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 22nd 2011, 10:43 pm

If one is living in a predominantly Christian country, the story of Jesus Christh, his birth and death, his life and lies, his family background, his teachings , miracles, laws and principles are taken as facts, not subject to question or debate. Anyone who disagrees with the story or even simply doubts its authenticity or reality is denounced as a heretic. Probably,,
we cannot really find a definitive or universally acceptable answer to the many questions about Jesus, The Christ. But logic, objective facts and evidence, not religious dogmatism, blind faith or emotional outbursts, must prevail if we are sincerely interested in discovering the truth about WHO IS HIM?.

Take the following incident that happened about a year ago. I was a guest speaker in a meeting of a Society of Christian Spiritists. While we are discussing some occultic aspects about Christainity, somebody asked me, “Hey, have you seen the movie ‘The Passion of Christ’ ?”I replied, “No, I would rather see Jesus making love to Mary Magdalene than see him being tortured to death.”

Upon hearing my reply, the old woman seated to my left shouted out ferociously, “ Hey! That’s blasphemy!” The angry woman turned out to be a high-ranking member of the militant and wealthy Catholic sect Opus Dei, which Dan Brown portrayed in “The Da Vinci Code” as “a murderous, fanatical and sinister Catholic cult.” Of course, the book is fiction, as Dan Brown says. Anyway, knee-jerk reactions like that of the Opus Dei member are what make objective discussions about Jesus and his life so difficult in this country. Before one can present his arguments or evidence, he is at once rebuked or silenced.

Fortunately, there are brave souls like me and my husband Very Happy Very Happy who are not afraid to report what we have found, even though they might go against commonly held religious beliefs and dogmas. After so many researhes.. what emerged from these different gospels (which have come to be known collectively as Gnostic Gospels) is a picture of Jesus Christ quite different from that handed down to us by the accepted gospel writers. Instead of an authoritarian dispenser of truth and a savior, he appears more like a sympathetic and wise teacher liberating man from his ignorance of spiritual truths, one who listens and answers questions of his disciples with patience.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 22nd 2011, 11:07 pm

Phoenix... THAT IS AMAZINGLY INSPIRATIONAL!!!!!
i would love to hear more about your experiences like that.
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Tatanial Kayhon
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 23rd 2011, 2:26 am

Well Kneph, there is no proof, except the Bible, that actually states he existed properly. And the Bible is not a historical document, as nothing in it can be proven. Also, Jesus Christ is not a name, but a title, a Greek one at that.If he did exist, his name was Yeshua(spelling?) and he was just a young Hebrew male, and by the age of 13, in the Hebrew tradition, he would have been married. There were a couple of historians in the general area that Jesus "existed" in, and, according to the bible, he was a well known man, and known by most, especially for his miracles, but not one of these historians recorded him. But, there were several other "prophets" who could apparently do all the same things that "Jesus" did, and they were all recorded and mentioned in historical documents.

Jesus is an Ideal, and a means to control. The message of Jesus was of kindness, but he is used for control. I personally do not believe in Jesus as there is no historical facts that proves his existence, yes he is mentioned in a couple Greek and Roman documents, but upon further research, you will find these documents to be over 300 years older then the elated time of his supposed existence, and it was only of mention of Christos(which is Greek for Anointed), so it could refer to anyone.

Also, some. 300-400 years after his supposed existence, there met the The Council of Nicaea, which was headed by the Emperor Constantine, and leaders of the new developing religion of Christ. In this council, they took the apparent writings of his disciples(all of them) and removed what ever made him seem less then a God, that made him seem human, like his wife and possible children.

When we look at history, the story of the birth of Jesus as been told a few times before, like in Egypt, on the 24th of December, there were "Three Kings" who travels to the birth of the sun of god. When we look at this and history, and their Pagan worship, we see this: The "Three Kings" were three stars in which the Egyptians call The "Three Kings" and on Dec 24th, they travels the sky in a line, and met up with the Newborn Sun, born of a virgin Isis, which took place after the Death of Osiris, the Sun being the actual Sun.

Now see see why most Pagans and many people dispute Jesus, since his story is not a new one, nor is there proof and his existence. Now, how did those who followed and made the bible know of the Egyptian tale, but yes, the Hebrew people were once their slaves, and thus incorporated their beliefs into their own, and also, the Hebrew bible, which the Christian bibles original text comes from, was written after the escape from Egypt.

Now, most religions around the world actually do not believe that Jesus existed, but merely state that one "If Jesus existed, I believe and support the message he spread" Others say, to be less demeaning to Christians just say "I believe and support the message that Jesus spread"

^_^ Many blessings,

TK!<3

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 23rd 2011, 10:46 am

Wether or not Jesus existed I really do not care. For if he did or not he is but a man to me with ideas and morals and nothing more. I do not see why there has to be much fuss about himn in being the supreme idea that has to be shoved down the throats of the populace who think their truths are elsewhere. If he is a beacon of light and comfort for others I have no objection to his reverance. Only the method of which his words are apparently spread in his name.

There is however a common tale amongst the buddhist religion (namely the sino-tibetan areas) that long ago there were a group of high ranking Lamas that left Tibet to go seeking a reincarnated Tulku. They apparently left the Himalayas and found their way to Bethlehem and found the incarnation of their master and brought him back to Tibet for studies. This is all common practice in Tibetan buddhism. Which possibly gives rise to the 3 wisemen/king/magi in the story. However the Magi also can be the practioners of the Zoroastrian religion which shares alot of its practices with the judaic religions. This conincides with the fact that we know absolutely nothing basically of Jesus's childhood and adolescence besides on or two accounts. Which he is convienently missing until hes roughly 32. However it is said after the age of 12 he went around the ancient world learning the esoteric lore of that era even so much all the way to the British isles as some legends there say. Interestingly in the Tibetan records where he is apparently buried his name of the boy they found is "Yeshua". But many doubt it is the same person who are aware of this knowledge. That and the time frames may or may not be conflicting.

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Tatanial Kayhon
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 23rd 2011, 5:12 pm

Wonderfully said Bodhi!

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 23rd 2011, 10:15 pm

That is a interesting point Bodhisattva. Although the Buddha and Jesus lived hundreds of years and cultures apart, there are striking parallels to the sayings attributed to them. It is not that they said exactly the same things, it is rather that their distinctive and independent sayings pierce the veil of illusion, reminding us that God, or truth or whatever word that we choose to call that which is ultimate, binds us together in a timeless and infinite garment of mutuality. Kinda of makes you go Hmmmmm!LOL

Within the crossing ideas of Paganism and Xianism I hear questions such as, Did Christianity arise from ancient mystery Pagan religions? Did the early Roman Church deliberately adopt a vast number of Pagan rites, festivals, and beliefs? The answers to these can be striking and enlightening in revealing that Paganism was preserved in the Catholic transformation!IMHO

If this was the case, what motivated the priests to copy specific aspects of Pagan mythology? What is the connection between Jesus and certain Pagan gods? Is it possible that Christianity and Paganism have more in common than our Christian authorities are willing to admit?



A majority of us associate Paganism with idol worship, blood sacrifices, and witchcraft. We were taught to believe that Pagans are primitive people, who in some way worship the devil. So, how can a pure, sacred, and unique religion as Christianity be based on such occult concepts? Surely, this assumption can only be dismissed as absurd. To write off something as "impossible" is an easy and quick process.

Still, before we reject the Christian/Pagan connection, we should first ask ourselves a couple of questions. Could it perhaps be that we have a totally wrong and twisted image of old traditional Paganism? Were the mystery religions maybe more spiritually developed than we realize? What was the true reason for painting followers of the mystery religions in such black colors?

We must keep in mind that the early Church of Rome used all of its political, financial, and social power to conquer Paganism and its followers at any price. Sacred Pagan literature was destroyed and all heretics were "eliminated".

Assisted by the Roman Empire, the Church engaged in a long and terrifying war against the "infidels". It was a battle, which of course the Church at the end won.
Old-fashioned Paganism was extinct and the world was "purified." Nowadays, Paganism is considered a dead religion, and what we encounter in modern times are new branches of the old mystery traditions. Ancient Paganism has turned into Neo-Paganism, which is systematically gaining new members in various countries.

Our current, negative, and dark image of Pagans is the one, which the Church has presented to us for 2,000 years. It is a very long time and we all know that old ideas and beliefs do not die quickly.

Nevertheless, it is utterly wrong to proclaim that Christianity is against Paganism, when Christianity itself originates from it. This might sound as a bold statement and naturally, many readers will demand convincing proof. Still, to provide a person with proof is not a problem, however to change old, deep-rooted beliefs is a task that cannot be easily accomplished.

Actually, Christianity contains so many aspects of Paganism that it is difficult to imagine this religion without the occult features. This brings us to another rather obvious question - if there really are so many parallels between these religions, why are these similarities not common knowledge? The answer is straightforward and simple - because the early Roman Church did all in its power to prevent us from discovering them.

Early Christians were aware of the common ground they shared with followers of the mystery religions. Today, these Christians would be judged as heretics. The ancient beliefs have long been forgotten and the true meaning of the symbols, festivals, and rites was erased from history. Certain Christian symbols and celebrations, like the cross and Christmas for example were, because of their pagan origins later even condemned by the Church Fathers.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 23rd 2011, 11:58 pm

You people teach me so much...
Learning from here has changed my beliefs tremendously for the better.

and yes, why is paganism portrayed in dark colors so often? so many pagans i see usually wear all dark colors... even true and pure pagans, not just eclectic and "fluffy" pagans based off goth and satanic based pop culture. i even find that since i became pagan, i prefer wearing black more than i used to. i used to wear it because it complimented my figure and brought out my eyes (self conscious much?) but now i wear it more because i feel more at peace wearing a neutral color like black. i don't like wearing brighter colors. I also find dark atmosphere and lighting more appealing, and i find myself much more introverted than i used to be.
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 12:44 am

The Darkness has been the friend to the Witches for Centuries as our way to hide. Black is really a Colour of empowerment, as no colour effects it.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 12:46 am

Depends on the particular type of pagan since it is largely a variable practice and belief they differ. I know pagans who wear poofy happy Japanese cute character cartoons or some who wear trench coats with long black hair and piercings with make up. It just really depends on the person. I however must admit I dress according to fashion whenever I can. But my common colours are blue purple white grey and black. Black skinny jeans with purple deep V with a black and grey cardigan. Whilst I know a good pagan friend of mine who even goes in pajamas sometimes.

Pagans however do tend to be portrayed in that dark perspective mainly because since it is technically occult makes sense to be hidden the person too right? I love bright sunny days as much as stormy rainy ones. Its just the person really but maybe your personality tailored to match your views. Really interesting the diversity humanity can create!

However most practice in the shadows. I make my practices known to an extent I don't advertise it but I do openly talk about it or offer my assistance. Sooner or later they come to me seeking my aid anyways. But in litteral terms I am the hermit tarot card, all black and dreary but holding a bright lantern. Combination of both.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 9:15 pm

what are the tarot cards?
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 9:25 pm

? Be more specific? I could take that as you want me to list them or you have no idea what they are lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 10:59 pm

what are they, and what do they represent?
like your card, what does it mean symbolically?
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:07 pm

Tarot cards are cards crafted with rich symbolism and meaning to be used in divination purposes. Each card is largely unique with an infinite amount of representation depending on the question, situation, and user.

MY card in general represents a teacher of great wisdom, who has left the world but is in between to help lead or teach others. As he is seen on a mountain dressed in black on a stormy day with a staff and a golden lantern. He can also mean failure depression or solitude

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:08 pm

per example

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:10 pm

Do you have a link to the Tarot cards in a way like that picture? and meanings perhaps?
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:12 pm

When I perform a reading, How I bring the interpetation to the card varies greatly.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:12 pm

that makes sense.
is there a way to make tarot cards without them looking like tarot cards?
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:18 pm

Yes, but its a little difficult.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:18 pm

I've heard of people using basic playing cards.
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:26 pm

Yup thats normal

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:29 pm

Seems complicated though. and i wouldn't know where to start.
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 24th 2011, 11:33 pm

Learning and practice eventually get you there Smile Just have to start anywhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   February 25th 2011, 10:15 am

There are some claims that the tomb of Jesus' family was found some years back. There's a book by James Tabor (archeologist) called the Jesus Dynasty that presents what is known about the historic Jesus as well as the development of the controversial findings. There is definitely more evidence than the Bible that the person of Yeshua existed, that he had several brothers and sisters, that he was of the lineage of David and the priestly lineage of Aaron, that he was probably a stone mason and not a carpenter, that he was probably concieved out of wedlock (not by Joseph obviously), that he and John the Baptist probably read the scriptures to insert themselves in them as the fortold twin messiahs (yes, the tradition has two of them), and that James the Just was his younger brother and the real organizer of the movement as a reformation of Romanized Judaism, as opposed to the religion Paul wanted to start.

There is also credible speculation that Jesus survived the crucifixion, given he was on the cross hours instead of the days it takes to die, he was beaten up so he would pass out sooner, he was given some concoction to knock him out (and thus prevent shock) translated as "vinegar" in the King James Bible, his legs weren't broken and he was spirited off without his body being examined to be "annointed" by herbs that happened to have healing properties. There are also records of several people surviving the cross, so it's not so farfetched. Many believe there are just too many historically accurate details particular to the time Jesus lived for him to be completely mythic. Most believe that he was painted other than he really was by Pauline propagandists.

Christianity as it was given to pagans was Paul's construct, and his followers did a lot of work to elliminate the writings of James (except one canonical letter) and the teachings of the original group of Jewish rerformists. Much of this is speculation, but then all archeology and history is about weaving known bits and pieces to model a bigger picture. Anyway, this book is pretty well accredited and worth the reading by anyone concerned about the historic existence of Jesus.

Personally, I take the Gnostic view: Jesus matters less than what he had to say. Besides no Jew would call himself or any other human being, god. That was a habit for pagans and especially their rulers. Mesopotamians, Egyptians and Romans worshipped their rulers as gods. Christianity simply made sure that their chosen one died first (although a few current European rulers still try to trace their ancestry to Jesus and claim legitimacy for their position).
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PostSubject: Re: Jesus   April 13th 2011, 9:02 am

Kneph wrote:
just thought i'd post on Jesus. i'd like to find some things out aboot him.

It makes me sad when i hear people talking about Jesus (who aren't Christian) and calling him a fake (especially pagans). I feel that since we have orthopraxy we should acknowledge that he was a real person and that his stories are true. Other religions recognize him as real, why can't some pagans?

That is certainly a most applicable quote for this topic: "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged..."

I think this applies to any spiritual path, not just Christianity. What purpose does it serve to aggressively debate the paths of others? (Ab)using the 'right of free speech' to promote one's own beliefs or sense of morality as better or higher or more 'right' than those of others, I think, shows a lack of compassion that belies any claims of enlightenment on the part of one who uses such crass and self-aggrandizing tactics.

I'm very blessed that my siblings, both Christians, live by Christ's example; they are both open to discussing the beliefs and experiences of others, and in my sister's case, she's given a lot of flack for what I view as her peaceful and loving attitude. She feels more free to share with me than with any of her Christian friends when it comes to talking about her own spirituality. She receives no argument or judgment from me, and that goes both ways. She's an amazing woman, my sister, and I love talking with her.
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